Thursday, July 19, 2012

hi

Need suggestions to improve Cooler / MC.

Current suggestions:

A gate to block access to his base
A buffed early game / nerfed late game
Changes to the damage of death beam (maybe allow it to scale with upgrades)
Possible cap on non super workers and clones (prevention of mass lag)
Lowered cast time on teleport

77 comments:

  1. does this mean there will be new betas?!

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  2. Hi mada nice to see you again (Dani)

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    1. this will be interesting, looking forward to it adam

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  3. Ok, so some problems:
    1) towers needs lower damage (not important though) and lower HP/Armor (much more important) since every1 is weaker.
    This ESPECIALLY goes for his resource transporters and his main building.

    His towers also need to grant somewhat lower stats than what they already do, that will even out his stat farm more.

    Teleport should be an utility move, since it basicaly is instant transmission it shouldn't be so weak compared to goku/cell's version. The cast time in 2.1c is fine, you could maybe make it work like with lockon (unable to use while close to enemy heroes/saga).

    As for his clones, they are fine how they are now, you shouldn't make them more than a usefull tool to collect upgrades quickly, especially if the Z fighters decide to attack its nice to have them there. However, they shouldn't split stats because they wont be strong enough this way for the Z fighters to actually try to kill them. They need to have 1/3rd of geti's stat no matter how many, and rather balance it out with food cost, this way Z fighters cant let them just smash endlessly at them.


    And now to something else: Where is the vegeta in pink shirt you talked about? Make me happy and add him!

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    1. about the clones takin up food space...

      they already did ever since the first beta if im not wrong

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    2. " The cast time in 2.1c is fine, you could maybe make it work like with lockon (unable to use while close to enemy heroes/saga)."

      Disagree, since geti's tp has a longer cd and much more delicate casting system (have to channel to tp and cd goes off whether or not Geti tps).

      "As for his clones, they are fine how they are now, you shouldn't make them more than a usefull tool to collect upgrades quickly, especially if the Z fighters decide to attack its nice to have them there."

      Just plain wrong. Using clones to gain ups was a glitch in 2.1c, was banned on bots and has since been removed. Personally, I think clones are too weak now to be a viable resource to saga/defend/offense since any small quantity larger than 3, means rather weak clones with no special abilities (like strong creeps more than anything else). I personally think that clones should be stronger, but maybe add an incentive for z's to kill, such as modest stat gains or the reverse being a slight stain reduction on geti. Most likely this could be porpotional to clone's stats.

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    3. Hotdog, I meant stats, increased modifier, not upgrades :D
      Sorry for not thinking before I write.

      Also, while his teleport have a CD and casting time, with the short casting time in 2.1c its quite hard to interrupt (though gay if it happends) but after mid game its way less limited due to it works on any building, sadly not on teammates.

      I however think it should be a mobility spell and not an escape tool though, just to keep it like it already is but giving a buff to the mobility part.

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  4. put multipliers back to how they normally were and remove the stats shit i just finished playing a game of 2.2 and i like the idea of map expansion/new chars and all that but the multipliers being so shitty makes the game feel shitty for me and alot of other players, so if you want to keep the current players playing 2.2 and not 2.1c then i strongly believe you should set multipliers how they originally were and remove the stats bull shit,

    p.s all the people in the game of 2.2 i played with either left in dissapointment or complained about the multipliers and the uneven stats the ENTIRE game, this is all i have to say the choice is yours on what you want to do

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    1. I've not heard one good reason for the current multipliers being shitty. Elaborate, gogo.

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    2. One reason y multiplies are kinda crappy now is mana pools/mana drains. With the low multipliers, heros that have mana drain associated with their multipliers (mostly z's), can't sustian or chain well, while thier counterparts do not suffer. While this happens with the multipliers higher, the effects of these mana drains are exacerbated by the lower mana pools b/c of the lower multiplier. Like I said, this is just one reason.

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    3. This guy has to be LV:P

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    4. In any case adam, the only thing that bothers me a bit about current multipliers, eventhough i have fix for it yet so I am gonna keep thinking about it--> Atm its really easy for someone to 1 shot another person even if he is 100-200 stats ahead.
      As I said I didn't really think about a solution yet just thought it was worth mentioning.

      Overll im loving the lower multipliers, makes you be more careful about mana, less rushing and more/better pvping

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  5. Honestly, I think buffing his nukes alone would basically make tower farming obsolete. It would basically make him buffed early game while being nerfed late as one of suggestions state. The buffed nuke should make it near impossible for him to not get any of his require multipliers. But you already made Tao, so yea..Geti needs to be reworked to be a bit different imo. Maybe have it so when he or a clone dies he get a defensive upgrade, when he kills someone he get's a offensive upgrade and for powering up, maybe make it based on gold like 1k making his pl 1.15 and make his energy drain abilty an actually ability choice rather then one that needs to be researched that, when used on a z fighter near 10% hp or less gives him 10k gold.

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    1. "Honestly, I think buffing his nukes alone would basically make tower farming obsolete."

      Huh, how so? Have you seen a good geti in 2.1c before?

      "make his energy drain abilty an actually ability choice rather then one that needs to be researched that, when used on a z fighter near 10% hp or less gives him 10k gold."

      Don't see how the gold would help balance him out at all, and the drain ability seems like it would be way too op if gained early (completely stops anyone from being able to rush him) and if it's gained later, then what's the diff if it's bought or learned?

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    2. In order, Yea, plenty back in the day before tower farming just became a "must", a good geti would just tear z's up without the aid of towers.Hell, I can remember quite a few times where geti would just end the game 5 mins.As for the gold idea? I was thinking instead of him being basically being what Tao is, only having to kill or be killed by a z, he would power up from reaching gold requirements where his total gold would determine his power level. Geti could still be fucked over if his bases are targeted, but now he wouldn't need towers to catch up if he attempts to rush getting gold. As for the Energy Drain? Have you ever used it? It only drain's mana and not that much, just enough to be annoying and the CD isn't really short. Besides, it's more of a double edge sword. If it was switched to this, yes geti would be harder to rush, but at the same time if he was harassed early on he could be quite easily rushed since it would be based on his total gold.

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    3. I like how he works now, the whole micro management thing is nice. What I would like to see is more differentiation with MC and the Geti star. So that you could chose how to play him.

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  6. Buff his starting mana by 2x and your set for everything.

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    1. I think his nuke should be at 2.1c lvls (when I tested it a while ago it was weaker by enough to effect chaining early). With that in mind, I'm not sure if its a mana pool problem or nuke effectiveness problem.

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  7. Wierd suggestion, but what if you made buildings like you have clones now. Make a Geti have a total amount of 'materials' to use for all of his buildings (main star, transports and towers), and let his main star have at 30% of that material all the way up to 100% if he only has his star. This would create a somewhat delicate balance of how much Geti could reasonable farm throughout early and mid game without making his base to vunerable.

    If anyone has any thoughts, please share.

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    1. "at least 30%"

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    2. I like this idea.

      Maybe remove his scan and add the unit "Geti Star Scout" as a flying unit, no damage and immune to creeps but with low hp. When they get killed have them ping the spot of death and if possible show who killed it.
      -------------------------------------------

      More balanced respawning system:

      Have the Geti Star Fragment lose 10% hp when Cooler revives. (Can be repaired still)

      Have Cooler re-spawn with X% hp where X=Geti Star Fragments %hp.


      --------------------------
      After the Star is destroyed give Cooler the spell:
      Last Resort (300% damage version of death ball, 3x size, High cooldown, cant explode on contact, must reach end of timer)
      -----------------------------------
      Instead of having teleport maybe have Cooler be able to swap locations with a clone. (Keep bases recall)
      *This will mean you should change coolers initial spawn to were his worker is
      ------------------------------------

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    3. Hotdog are you referring the UPKEEP method from normal wc3? Just so I understand what you are talking about =D

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    4. 3x size? dafuq that is like entire cell area, with a 300% damage version that is guaranteed kill is it not? especially if the ball can follow the player. Seems bit OP

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    5. 3x size would be about Bebi's nuke. It would be a near guaranteed hit, but the damage is still over time. Maybe only 200%?

      Also add hitpoints to it, so that players could 'destroy' it much like how all large attacks work in the show. This would take some balancing.

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    6. what do you mean with 3x size? i think we have a different opinion of this, i thought you meant 3x radius

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  8. z15.invisionfree.com/Clan_SPN

    alot of the discussions go there

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  9. Have MC notified that his worker can heal teamates near the start of the game.

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  10. I know this is Cooler part but posting anyway. This is how i posted it on the SPN forums.

    At the moment dr.gero seems to be a tad "overpowered" mainly cause his android 19 gets very very strong after hitting 90 and him being unsensable to actaully stop.
    I came up with the following suggestions to improve this

    -Probably should make android 19 go to 100% max ==> 50 75 100
    -maybe 40-60-80 if problem still remains
    -add a summoning timer to android 19, make it summong timer = cd timer so you still get 100% uptime (if done correctly, but more micro intensive)

    Since i came back i only tested gero, and besides this it seems like a fun char to play. Tell me if its any good!

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    1. ur forgetting that gero can heal 19 too..

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    2. Could be a bit longer CD on heal other androids, will have t look into that

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    3. Or have a 3 second animation on repair.

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    4. Personally im not a fan of long animation, i'd rather have a bigger cd. Problem with long animations is standing still and not knowing how long it will take exactly.
      Would be a crappy system imo

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    5. Maybe a heal over time then? Kinda like a bean.

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    6. that seems fair, maybe eve let it work the same, damage will cancel the effect

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  11. First,why have you been away for so long?

    -I personally believe MC should be changed to the way dragonball tribute ultra is.That is:
    Have steady access on gold (no need for bases)
    MC's and Towers gain gold from killing monsters instead of gaining stats or upgrades.
    Remove wood in general.
    Buyable abilities should not share cooldown.They should be placed in the hero abilities.Removing some icons might be necessary.
    Multipliers should be buyable.That means,if I am level 60 and I want to go to the closer multiplier (say from 1.75 to 2) but all z's are gone ,I need to buy my multipliers (they won't be cheap).


    And most importantly.

    Add abilities on clones.This is my dream,watching 10 coolers death beaming a boss or a z to death.

    Cheers :D

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    1. Intersting but I gotta say 1 thing:

      Add abilities on clones.This is my dream,watching 10 coolers death beaming a boss or a z to death.

      yeah this doesnt seem OP at all! (A)

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    2. Nah,it can be balanced around,say they have the very basic death beam (level 1) so you'll need to have like 7 to reach the deathbeam of main MC.

      They should be closer to the movie (regeneration and abilities must be added) but with a lot of balance fixes :)

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    3. I don't see any incentive to gold with this system if Geti maintains the current way he gets ups as well. I mean Geti doesn't need to buy power ups if he's rolling and if he's getting stomped, then focusing on golding just to buy upgrades instead of jus a 500 gold clone (which can give u a power up), he'll fall further behind.

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  12. Again not cooler feedback. but nowhere else to put it.

    Just finished an hour + game inhouse 5v5. Evil had the upperhand from about 25-30 min in.. However they couldnt kill us all because i hid with dende, or someone else just farmed (scouter got destroyed).
    It is my opinion that for evil there should be a late game ability to sense people every now and then. This ofcourse to balance out the z's sensing. Please think about it!

    gz

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    1. Btw during almost all the fights in this game. It seemed that pvp was very balanced. Battles took long cause of kiting/healing (both sides) but it wasnt annoying imo, it was tense. This proves to me that overall its a pretty balanced game atm! so kudos

      ps: tie breaker was fusing vegito for stronger nukes, and getting bio item back =D

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    2. Cooler has Scan, Cell has Sense, Bebi get vision of anyone he infects and Tao gets pings on a target. Add this to scouter and we have

      5 ways to sense as Evil
      vs.
      8 ways as Z fighters.

      The solution here seems to be a limit on sensing. Maybe only once every minute?

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    3. tao pings is 30 second
      bebi didnt getanyone
      cell can sense a few characters only
      cooler was cooler not metal cooler

      as i said LATE game, not early game.

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    4. and how many evil can z's sense? Half the team? But also, cell can sense the majority of z's so I'm not really sure if sensing needs to be buffed on evil.

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    5. Cell can't sense goku

      Z's cant sense:
      Androids
      METAL Cooler
      Bebi
      Dr. Gero


      Seems to even out in the end.

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    6. how is this even out? its 1 vs 4, with cooler 1 vs 3.

      The problem I have is the fact that even though z's might wtf pwn early game and its pretty much gg at 15 min mark. Evil can stretch out over an hour just because they are unsensable . This is why I made the suggestion for some sort of other way to "sense" the ones who normally can be sensed by giving a timer unlock or level unlock or something similair. That only makes you able to do it around 30+ min and not earlier.
      what im saying is to buff the way sense works on the Z team, not the evil team. Although it might come down to both in the end.

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    7. all z's can sense already i dont think they need any more sense buff seriously

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    8. dende and hercule can't :P. But you seem to miss my point, I would be happy to remove sense from some people if there was a way to get bebi/androids/dr.gero.
      Every game i play with SPN members, it seems to go on for more then an hour simply cause people can run run run run run and never be found cause they hide hide hide hide. and never ever be found till 1 hour passes.
      And as I said, this works vica versa.... the whole point im trying to makeis that BEFORE 1 hour game there should be a way that anyone on any team is able to hunt down the other.

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  13. When bebi enters vegeta, and then vegeta goes vegito, they can stil see vegito. This is i assume cause we use "vegetas" point of view, ( i suspect same thing to happen with goku).
    However im not sure if you intended for this?? imo vision should disappear for the time that they are vegito.

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  14. I wanted to say MC can exploit the high multiplier of real Cooler if he just destroys the base,he goes in hell and gets the 3x (or is it 4x) multiplier.

    You don't get the extra stats,but you just faceroll everything in the map with that much multiplier (which also gets another power up at level ~150).

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    1. What cooler deffinitely needs:

      -Tower regeneration (make it scalable with upgrades,5 base + (2~5 per upgrade).Depending on how strong you make the regeneration it will be less,equal or stronger compared to the overal hp per upgrade.
      -Visible hotkeys on training units/buildings (currently they are not visible with the classic gold letter).

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    2. multipliers dont go passed 3x atm and that is ooz, cooler will become 2x i think if he dies. It seems that int he end it's not worth killing your base for a fast 2x at the start. Because metal cooler offers so much more benefits, and it takes ages AGES before the next multiplier. Since killing z fighters no longer gives you any

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  15. Oh, and hi Adam. Nice to see you again.

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  17. Tested the MC->Cooler thing and it works.Went from ~580 damage (that's around 280 stats without the upgrades) to ~800 and then from 1600 to ~2200 (at level 150).

    Not sure if intended but sure is a different way to play cooler.

    Also I've noticed that drones can repair automatically their fellow drones,which means I've partially solved the tower regeneration problem.But more drones,more lag in-game.

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    1. "Also I've noticed that drones can repair automatically their fellow drones,which means I've partially solved the tower regeneration problem.But more drones,more lag in-game."

      Wow, imagine that...

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    2. Imagine you need 2 drones per tower to repair both the tower and the drones themselves (because drones can't repair themselves).

      So yeah,that's a plethora more units.

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    3. Drones wont lag the game that much afaik. I have build around 100 drones in a game and didnt lagg, so should be fine I think.

      btw what did you test exactly? and put some timings behind it. cause if you have around 280 stats that means you already chained etc. And I wonder if you kill your base afterwards and then getout of hell etc, what te timer on the clock would show and how high I or anyone else could get in the meantime. This is just to show if its OP or not

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    4. My suggestion: Have a clone built in base, use it to attack base and chain normally in the mean time. See how long it takes to kill your base and from there what level you are at. You would need to kill it within 75 levels to be effective.

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  18. Adam ,one of the admins of evil_vegeta told me it's not allowed to clone farm for upgrades.

    And I was like "how am I suppossed to sustain the towers?"

    So yeah,next version you remove the clone upgrades,give mega buffs on towers since the only thing they can farm are currently spiders.

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    1. Did you even play 2.2?
      all if this is implemented except for the tower buff because its not needed in 2.1.
      PS: im not sure if anything happened to towers because i havnt been around much but afaik its not stronger, and it costs lumber now:P

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  19. Towers are the same power but there are more spiders on the map, and after 6 upgrade you can have them farm up to witches safely.

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    1. @Dieselpowerr, I clicked the wrong reply button.

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  20. My question remains,is it bannable to farm upgrades by patrolling clones (in 2.2 and 2.1)

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    1. Also,is there any hostbot for 2.2?All I see is 2.1c and it's boring..

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    2. 1st question: In the end Adam has no say in if its bannable or not, imbackb1tch.420 has. Only thing adam can add is if he intended for it to work a certain way or not.
      2nd question: SPN01 is hosting 2.2 but atm there is a small problem with DC issues.

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    3. mhm i did however switch the map back to the original and it seems that 2.2 has alot of bugs/memory leak issues causing the desynchs from the bot

      -LV

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  21. Hey guys, I don't know where to put this post but the Admin need to change settings on the bot, because atleast 25% of people ingame get just dropped by the bot due to "desync"

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    1. Desync can be caused by many different things, it's just as likely to be the game as the bot.

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    2. it was a faulty map should be fixed now

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  22. Please remove the music soundtrack when the first saga begins.It's irritating being unable to close it from options->music.

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  23. So,since nobody does it I'll do it...How about some news?

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. News can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/

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  24. http://z15.invisionfree.com/Clan_SPN/index.php?showtopic=994&st=0

    This ^

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    1. Hush, you letting in all the rift-raft.

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